Is Shallan's illusions similar to Essence Marks from Emperor's Soul?
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Is Shallan's illusions similar to Essence Marks from Emperor's Soul?
If you were to Feruchemically drain your Identity, would you just be able to be soulstamped by any-- Would any soulstamp work on you?
Not the way I have it now. Because-- You're getting into stuff that I really would like to have my notes next to me for. So don't take this as too gospel. But the way I have this worked out right now, is if you drain your Identity, you still can't use Feruchemical metalminds that themselves have not been drained of Identity, right?
So, any old stamp still is going to be keyed to someone's past and Identity. So my instincts say no that would not work, but I have not worked out that specific interaction in the notes.
Would a soulstamp carved from a gemstone and infused with Stormlight be more likely to Take?
No it would not.
If you created a Forgery where someone was killed, would that person stay dead or would they wake up when the stamp wore off?
Umm ok. So you, in order to kill them, would have to Forge them to death, right. You can't just like-- for instance, if you rewrote this table so for whatever reason it believed that I was dead, it wouldn't affect me at all, it would only affect the table, because if you rewrote the table to believe it had been carved a certain way and I was the carver, I wouldn't remember doing that. So the Forgery affects only the item. If you stuck a stamp on me that forged me to be dead, I think that would probably be-- Depends on what you do to me, but it could go either way.
It would have to be be believable wouldn't it?
Yeah it would have to be believable, but it could go either way. Depending on how you created it, and what was going on. It's a good question.
I did not come up with it!
Yeah, it is a good question... That could create some interesting paradoxes also.
I'm wondering if Shai could create a stamp that would turn someone into an Allomancer. Or, alternatively, create a stamp that would break a bond between a Radiant and their Spren?
This is possible--but likely beyond Shai's ability. It would require large amounts of investiture. The second would be easier.
With Forgery and ChayShan, can anybody from that country do them?
Why refrigerate food when you can just stamp spoiled food so that it was stored properly before?
You'll have to ask Brandon how that'd interact with gastric acid breaking down the stamp. Or how porous/loose material interacts with stamps in the first place.
Come to think of it... There's a WoB saying the Nightwatcher could change your species, but have a hard time making a spren bond to you. So... could the Nightwatcher turn you Scadrian and make you eligible for Allomantic powers? Or does the Nightwatcher's boons operate on soulstamp principles?
Hell, let's say you bought a vial of the wrong metal on your field trip to Sel. Could you pay a Forger to stamp the vial into being a vial of the right metal (it's believable that you would check before such an important trip) and then drink the metal contained in the vial to fuel your Allomancy?
All right, all right. Let's see... /u/Aurora_Fatalis, changing metals around with other forms of Investiture is generally going to work, according to how I view the magic right now. The power is there, you just need to align the matter the right way. So forging new metals: not too difficult. This is because Allomancy isn't actually using Investiture in the metals, but using it as a key to get power from somewhere else.
Forging a sword to be a Shardblade, however, would be very, very difficult for multiple reasons. The most obvious one is that the Investiture required would be enormous. A Shardblade is a highly-Invested object, with its own self-aware soul.
If you could overcome the initial resistance invested objects have to being influenced by other magics (something that Forgery is particularly good at doing anyway) you'd theoretically be able to change Shardblade/spren's personality like you could a person's.
Fooling the magic via Connection and Identity is not so hard, under the right circumstances, so making a Forger into an Elantrian (or an Allomancer) for a short time is plausible. Making yourself into a Radiant, however, would be more difficult--because the limitations placed on that magic have to do with persuading a sapient being you are worth the bond.
How about regular food? If I stamp a pineapple pizza into a pepperoni pizza and eat it, what nutrients do I end up with?
The way I have it working now, I believe (though I'd have to do some double-checking, as it's been a while since I've been working on Sel) soulstamps are more fragile than things like Aons, and it would be very hard to eat something with one without breaking it. But assuming you could, you'd get nutrients from what it had become--but those would change back once the stamp broke or ran out.
It is possible to go so far down this rabbit hole, however, that the chemistry of Forging (like the physics of Allomancy) it just can't make sense any more. So be aware.
With things like Stamping metals for Allomancy, you have said that it'd be possible for short time, but then burning it would break the Seal and metal would revert back.
I guess it would be similar with food, right?
Yes, that's the big problem with Forging. Getting the stamp to stay in place once you start to change the object that has been stamped.
Is it possible to use a Soulstamp to give Shardplate life or at least achieve a robotic status?
Wow, it is really, really hard to Invest things that have already been Invested. Regular-- Let's just say that, it is really hard to do that. Part of the reason why it is difficult for instance to Push or Pull on something that is inside of somebody because the Investiture is interfering and you would have that similar problem doing anything to Shardplate with any of the magics.
[In Forging], if you rewrite the history of an item, and it took effect permanently, would there ever be a potential to have a butterfly effect, out beyond the history of the item, that might directly affect something somewhere else in the world?
It would be very very hard for that to ever happen, because it's like spliced DNA or something like that. It's not real. It's a forgery. Nothing else considers it, that it did that. The only tricky bit would be if you have children, and you've rewritten yourself in an interesting way that’s actually changed your DNA, that... might have ramifications.
Does Forging work by some kind of "procedural generation"? So Shai says "make me a stained glass window with a swirly pattern" and (assuming it's plausible) a window is "generated" without Shai having to go into exacting detail about its form? If so, what are the templates/guidelines that this generation is based off of?
It's somewhere between the two things you mention, and the guidelines are somewhat quantum in nature--meaning, what's the most likely pattern she'd have created if she'd actually gone about creating it.
Also, I overheard Brandon saying to another fan that all magic on Sel is essentially programming, and building up a complex Aonic effect or an intricate Forgery works just like writing code.
I have a question in regards to the soulstamps… When Shai is creating it she blows flakes off of it. Are those flakes able to be enchanted and do they have any power?
Do the flakes that Shai blows off the front of the soulstamp have any hidden power? The answer is, no. I'm sorry, nice theory. The blowing off is actually just related directly to my experience. Soulstamps come from--
I lived in Korea for two years as a Mormon missionary, and then I went back to Taiwan to visit because there's a huge Brandon Sanderson fan base in Taiwan. For those who don't know, what happened is the publisher who got The Emperor's Sou-- No, no, the publisher who got Mistborn in Taiwan, published it the same month or so that Hunger Games came out, and everyone who was looking for-- read The Hunger Games wanted something like it ended up buying Mistborn. So actually-- *laughter* It's one of those things over here, like The Maze Runner or one of these other YA dystopians are what took off in the kind of halo of The Hunger Games. Over there, Mistborn was in the halo of The Hunger Games. It actually sold about as well in Taiwan which is-- So we just sold tons of copies in Taiwan. So I went back and it was really fun-- by the way you can go to my timeline on Facebook and whatever, and here, people like to ask questions. A lot of the superfans like to have a question and things like that. There, the superfans like to get pictures. And so there are like 5,000 pictures of me and teenage schoolgirls *laughter over Brandon* just all over Facebook from that period. But I went and visited the palace museum.
And anyway, I remembered a time in Korea where I'd seen someone carving these and he would do a little of this and blow it off, do a little bit and blow it off. Kind of the old-school carver. Now most days it's actually-- they're actually made by machines. You load in a design, you lock in your little tojong into the machine, and it goes and it will carve it out to look like the little computer design. But you see occasionally old school people carving them hand-- That's why I made it do that, because I'd actually seen someone carving one. There is not supposed to be any hidden magical meaning, other than the fact the stone that they're using is a traditional type of stone, which may or may not have Invested properties.
Have we seen any soul-stamped objects in any of the non-Sel books?
For you to have seen this, someone would have to have cracked the issue with Sel magics losing power greatly when taken from the planet.
Is this a feasible task for someone like Shai or Hoid? We know the Moon Scepter is a Rosetta stone, so the task seems less daunting, right?
The task is less daunting for certain. I don't want to say more, however, as I think the clues are there about Sel's magic, and I want to avoid saying too much.
Thanks for taking the time (again) to answer me!
So, here's the thing. The problem with magic on Sel is not one people are looking at the right way. And I'm really loathe to dig into it more, because I won't be able to write the books set on the world for a few more years yet.
Already, great moments in upcoming books aren't going to be as powerful to the hardcore fans, as they'll know the answers already.
But your theory, while very cool, wouldn't work--and stems from you attacking the problem in the wrong way.
Can Forgery rewrite someone's gender (after all, it's just swapping out an X for a Y ...)?
Forgery could do this, but it is a tad bigger a change than you imply. Think of it this way: It's much easier for the magic to pretend that a table was cleaned up and polished than it is for the magic to pretend the wood used to make the table instead was used to make a chair.
Could you make a (working) stamp out of aluminium?
Suppose you had a Feruchemist that was also skilled in Forgery. If they Soulstamped themselves, would they normally be able to still use Feruchemy, and if they were able to use Feruchemy after a Soulstamp would they be able to access their own metalminds?
You could do so, but it would require jerry-rigging in order to make it work, since the Soulstamp overwrites the current Spiritual aspect of a person. He then said that the accessing the metalminds would also require some amount of jerry-rigging.
Is Sel realmatically knowledgeable by this point, or is it specific to Forgery?
Sel is the most realmatically knowledgeable of any of the shardworlds, but much of the knowledge demonstrated in the book is directly related to Forgery - it's tied to the theological aspects of Forgery more than anything else.
Any kind of Investiture to make a Shardblade?
Not any but there are multiple methods. Some work better than others.
Can you Forge a Shardblade?
To Forge a Shardblade, meaning make a regular sword through Forgery into a Shardblade, would require so much Investiture it’s like asking if we can make lead into gold using a particle accelerator. Yes but it's horribly, horribly, horribly inefficient.
If Shai were to gain a Shardblade and she gave it up, could she then create an Essence Mark that represented the history where she still had the blade? And then if she applied it could she summon the blade? Or a copy of it?
Okay, so doing that sort of thing, like re-writing herself to be an Allomancer or something like this -- This is possible but in order to gain the Investiture she wants to have she will have to input that much in Investiture which her current magic system is not capable of doing. Okay? Alright, so "re-write so that I have a Shardblade" would require some sort of hacking of her magic system, which is currently impossible to her in her current situation.
So if she had had a Shardblade and gave it up she could not rewrite herself to have that back without more input --
She could-- Yes, exactly. Now rewriting-- That would be a lot easier than just rewriting herself so that she had a Shardblade--
That's what I was asking--
Yeah, but what you're asking about would be much easier and that is probably within her power. But what that would do is-- Yeah that's totally within her power. It would create some weird implications where she's summoning it and someone summons it back from her because the Shardblade thinks it's owned by two people.
So it wouldn't be a copy it would be the same Blade?
If the Lord Ruler captured Shai and gave her 100 days to craft a soulstamp that could turn an iron Hemalurgic spike into a steel Hemalurgic spike, could she do it?
Yes, but she would need a boost of power to do it. Affecting an Invested object is hard.
Can Shai change Hemalurgic spikes?
Yes, but it costs a lot of power and she wouldn't be able to do it alone.
Could a Forger, like, reforge a Shardplate to look differently?
So here's the thing... Um, yes, *but*... Anything that is Invested is-- resists all of the forms of Investiture. And the level of Investiture in it determines how hard it is. Forging is one of these things that-- It's very hard to reforge things that are Invested. Not impossible though. So yes, *but*... Do you see what I'm saying? There's that-- there's a pretty significant "but" on that one.
Would it be easy for a Forger who'd once almost lost her arm (freak guillotine accident is the example that is used) to make a stamp to lose it temporarily, or would it require some more involved Forging than "my arm actually got cut off that one time"?
No, and-- The more plausible something is the easier the Forging is definitely.
If a Mistborn were to burn a metal that's been Forged by a Soulstamp, is there a different effect from another, or?
So they Forged it from one metal into another metal?
So once they started to burn it, it would break the Forgery and it would turn back into its original metal. So you'd have just the briefest moment of getting what it said it was and then it would go back to the other and then if you were a Misting of the wrong type, you would get no more from it.
What about Feruchemy or Hemalurgy?
So Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. You would have a lot of trouble Investing it because it's already Invested. So you would run into troubles right away trying to Invest it, because it's already got all the Investiture messing with it. You could theoretically make it happen, but it would take enough work and conniving that it just wouldn't be worth it.
If you were to use Forgery for brainwashing, say turning a criminal into a law abiding citizen (not practical but hey it is a what if) would they not remember who they had been? Or would they just not care?
Depends on the extent of the Forgery. If you reforge someone so their body and soul think they got amnesia, then had a certain set of experiences (very hard to do) then no, they wouldn't remember. Most often, it doesn't work this way, and you simply add memories you don't really have.
Can you Forge liquids, like-- Does that go into Bloodsealing, can you change their blood type?
OK, can you use Forgery to, say, change someone's blood type? Yes. Can you Forge liquids? A little harder to stamp liquids, so this kind of comes down to, can you--
Like, if you have a glass of water and you put salt in the water can you Forge it or make it and make it--
This is possible, but it requires a few little workarounds. Obviously you can do it because you Forge somebody, and they're mostly liquid.
But you're putting in on a hard surface.
Yes, in the same way that you would with thr liquid you would probably--
Touch some ice?
No, you would probably take the cup, and make it part of the whole, and if you can-- Remember in the cosmere, it depends on how you view a thing. Is it a whole? Do you view this as a cup of water, or do you view it as a cup and the water? Do you view a person as a vessel and the blood inside them, or together as a person? And that perception really affects your magic. So it's possible, for instance, to Forge a cup of water, Forging just the cup is easier than Forging just the water.
Could Shai Soul Forge herself into becoming an Elantrian?
That would be really hard. First of all, she'd have to change where she's born, then Soul Forge the fact that she became an Elantrian. Even then, she'd probably look like an Elantrian, but not have any powers. There would probably need to be some kind of bridge, or she would need some kind of super push from AonDor to make it work.
Can forgery change eye or hair color?
It could theoretically change eye or hair color
If you Stamp yourself, to have another, overwritten spiritweb, and you get Spiked-- *laughter* What would happen?
We actually worked this out. *laughter*
Well, you'd die, or very close to it, but would it revert when the Stamp reverts?
So what’s probably going to happen here is that you’re going to rip off the Investiture you’ve put on your soul, and your own soul will have less damage. Now, the spike is only gonna get the-- the spike, you're like "What will it do?" It will do what you've been overwritten with, but again remember, becoming an Allomancer takes so much energy, and things like-- But it is theoretically possible in the cosmere to rewrite yourself "You're an allomancer", someone spikes you to get this. The Investiture doesn't care that it was fake on you, you have managed to get that Investiture to work. Uhh, this is really tough. And really, like, you need Connection, and you need, like, the right kind of Investiture, but then it rips off and yes you have made a spike that makes you an Allomancer, even though the person was a Forger. So yes, okay? But this is the kind of stuff that is like the thought experiments for physicists in the cosmere as opposed to, y'know--
Can Soulforged bones be Awakened?
Can Soulforged bones be Awakened? So, Soulcast bones be awakened? Once the Soulcasting is done, it is no longer Invested, and it would act as the normal item. A Forged item will act as Invested, and will resist any manipulation. Differences between the magics.
I notice that the two most complicated Investiture systems that we know of, those being Hemalurgy and Forging, are both the Investitures of Shards whose names have a generally negative connotation. Is there any correlation?
I would say that is not an intentional correlation.
That is just a coincidence?
In theory, could you create weird structures or even alloys [with Forgery]?
Two scenarios: using Forging how you might use Soulcasting, such as turning something into wood, bending and carving it to make a new shape, then breaking the seal so it turns back into the original material without changing shape.
Second: Forging one metal into another, and forming an alloy to reduce operation costs. For example, tungsten has a melting point of about 3.5k C, but it's useful as part of a steel alloy for certain applications. Could you Forge it into, say, zinc, which has a melting point of about 500 C, create the steel, then turn it back into tungsten? Presumably the investiture would adjust the molecular structure so it acts as if it has been alloyed with tungsten originally too, otherwise the same process happening with food could be deadly.
Yes, this is in theory similar to Soulcasting. The difference is that a Forged object, upon "Forgetting" the rewriting to its spiritual nature is going to try to snap back and match what it "thinks" it should be like--which isn't going to lead to as much stability as Soulcasting, where the actual soul is changed. The object is going to try to get back to the way it "should" be, with varying results.
The reason the Lord Ruler aged hyper-quickly is related to this as well.
Are there power modifiers for Soulstamps like there are for AonDor?
Yes... Does Shai know them-- Or any of them?
Not "has she used them", I'm not going to go there, but does she know any of them?
She knows more than she thinks she does.
The magic in The Emperor's Soul, is that the only magic you've written that there is a Spiritual part to it in your magic trio?
Umm... All of them have some little dabbling in it, it is the most related to the Spiritual Realm-- Of the ones I have shown, certainly it is the most related.
If an Allomancer ate a Forged metal, what happens?
If an Allomancer eats a Forged metal, there is going to be some Investiture in that Forged metal, but it's not going to be keyed the right way, so it'd be like eating a metalmind... If you're asking if the metal was Forged into a different type of metal, the Forgery will take and it will believe and... that's going to get really weird. I have not considered that. That's a "let me think about it." My instincts say that it's going to work like the metal it's become long enough to burn for a few minutes, and then that's going to break the Forgery, and it's going to snap out of it and become the other [original] metal. That’s my instinct, but I’ll have to think about it further. [...] It's going to be really hard to burn a metal that's Invested like that. The magics don't mix real well.
Eh, you can burn metalminds.
Yeah, you can, but it’s from the same "magic set", right? So...
What exactly was Shai's Soul Forging of Ashravan comparing itself to to see how well it sticks? Like the Spiritual aspect? Cognitive aspect?
It's more Spiritual. Much more Spiritual.
If the technology for 3D printing--CNC milling and the like--existed on Sel, would a Forger be able to use it to create stamps, or would they have to do it by hand?
They would be able to, but since they have to still create the stamps themselves, they'd have to be the ones to model/draw the stamps.
How useful would gold Allomancy be for making Essence Marks?
Is it possible to soulforge yourself to have, say,a network of of blood vessels that would work as a self-renewing seal?
Clever idea, but not viable. The vessels would be too squishy, for one thing.
Is Resealing a subset of Forging, or a separate system like Bloodsealing is?
I'm trying to remember what I decided-- I was building all of this on a fourteen hour plane flight, keep in mind-- I believe it is-- Let's go ahead and PAFO that one. I need to go to my notes. I can give you a tentative "I believe it is the same system and not a cousin system" but at the end of the day I kind of had to go to my notes and work things out. There was lots of wiggle room built into the Elantris magic system but I have to know what I decided.
Could a Forger re-write their history to adjust the kind of metal they burn as an Allomancer?
They could, but it actually wouldn't do anything, because the magic would not be able to replicate the other magic.
So they would not be able to re-write history in the necessary way?
They would not be able to. I mean they could, but it wouldn’t have an effect, does that make sense? It would do nothing, it would be like you can create the stamp, the stamp would look like it was working but you just wouldn't end up with Allomancy.
If you were to [Forge] a car to say, that car had parked in a different space in parking lot what would happen, would it just disappear, if there were no other spots?
Okay, so you [Forge] the whole parking lot--
No, just SoulForge a car, in the parking lot to say it parked somewhere else.
That sort of temporal thing is probably not going to be something you can make work very easily with [Forgery]. You could rewrite this car so it had parked in that spot yesterday, but it's not going to change where it is, most cases. I think you might be able to contrive something that would work out, but that's normally not going to work... You can cause paradoxes with this sort of magic, that I have worked my best to make just not work.
What if you Soulstamped a city?
Soulstaped a city... So if you're a really good Forger-- It is possible to do things like that, but it requires a lot of work and time. Just one thing to keep in mind with Soulstamps, and anything that does this, rewriting your spiritweb, right, like, requires Invesiture. A lot of Investiture. And so, for instance, what Shai can do is really cool, but what an Elantrian can do is gonna look a lot more dramatic, right? Shooting a column of fire, you would say "Which takes more power, making the wall have flowers on it or shooting a column of fire?" Making the wall have flowers takes way more Investiture. It's a lot easier to pull off some dramatic effects with others, but the actual changing of the soul and overwr-- ...So just keep in mind the extent-- This is why you don't see Shai Forge it so the whole building disappears. Right? And stuff like this. Which is not outside of reason for a couple of Elantrians with the right program to put into place. But I mean effectively-- They could blow it up, essentially, that's what they would do
Make a new hole, rather than making one that has existed.
Yeah. Exactly. Do keep in mind, people like to ask, you've probably seen people ask, "Could I rewrite myself to be a Knight Radiant?" Right? WELL... There are certain things that you just-- you can't fake without enough energy that it becomes impractical. Usually what I use as an example to that is: Yes, we can turn hydrogen into gold, if we wanted to. Right? We can do that! It might take more energy than the earth creates in an entire year, but we can do that.
I get a lot of questions with this that I'm like "is it possible?" and I'm like "Guys, is it possible?" ...You should probably be like, "Is it possible, with reasonable amounts of energy provided by one Invested person".
How far does a forger need to understand a particular skill in order to replicate that skill in their forgery? For example:
To forge a painting, it's implied that Shai had to learn painting skills from a master. But it's obviously unfeasible that she has to get as good as the master to forge from it.
To forge her 'warrior' personality, Shai had to go train with the actual warriors, at least for a while. But obviously she wouldn't need to get as good as when she's imprinting herself, otherwise she wouldn't even need that imprinting.
It's said that the effectiveness of forgery lies in the feasibility of changing its history. Does that mean that all she has to do is learn enough to make it feasible for her to extended that training over a much longer period?
As for the painting, does it mean that she didn't really need to train in painting skills, she just needed to make it feasible that the particular piece of canvas or whatever would have been painted on by the artist instead of the original canvas? Or does she need some skills to produce something a bit closer to the original so that the change is more feasible?
Yes, you are thinking along the right lines. The more feasible it is for something to work, the easier it is to Forge that thing. This is similar to what happens with the Breaths in Warbreaker. The closer you can make something to seeming alive, the less Breath it takes.
I wanted to know if Forged metals had Allomantic properties.
If Forged metals had Allomantic properties. So what I’ve kind of been ruling on this is if you Forge a metal from one metal to another you can probably start burning it Allomantically but it-- Once you did it would disrupt the Spiritual nature of the metal and it would change back immediately.
Do the monks of Dakhor and Forging suffer from the same weakness of distance as the Elantrian magic?
Do the monks of Dakhor and Forging suffer from the same [weakness of] distance as the Elantrian magic? Yes they do. It's a little less pronounced in the monks because of certain things they are doing. It is very pronounced for Forging.
Regarding Ashraven... Would it be correct to say that memories are part of the mind/CR aspect? Assuming so, was Shai forging a new CR aspect to in-effect reconnect Ashraven's Soul (SR) with his body (PR)? I was thinking this could explain how she got his mannerisms correct -- i.e. that those are timeless SR aspects, so she didn't really get those right but instead, the SR connection was re-established?
Regarding Ashrovan: The problem here is that I don't want to get too deep into these sorts of things, for reasons that I want aspects of the magic to remain subject to discussion for a while yet. Suffice it to say that when we talk about Returned and lifeless in Warbreaker sequels, you'll have more ammunition for understanding what happened in Emperor's Soul.
Ashraven, Ashrovan...it's Ashravan damnit. He didn't step up to become emperor just so you could get his name wrong. Gaotona is ashamed of you all DX
In the original language, the a/o is very similar. I always get them mixed up in the English, like when I try to write aㅂsound from Korean in English.
Either that, or I just couldn't decide which one I wanted when writing the book, giving Peter a headache as he had to go back and standardize them all. :)
Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?
That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.
So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?
Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?
That's very interesting, isn't it?
Forged items. If it's one of those where it's permanent or it's not going to die after a couple of hours, can you move it off-world or would it transform once you moved it too far from its location?
Forgery requires a constant little stream of power to keep it going so yeah if you moved it off-world the Forgery's going to collapse.