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Is Harmony stronger than Odium?
Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.
I'm a big fan of Harmony.
Probably will never happen but I'd love to see him put the smackdown on Odium.
Paging [Brandon]... what do you think of this theory :) ? Is this your plan? Or are we asking about something which is decade(s) away?
I find theories like this very interesting, but yes, you're right. This is talking about things very far away. I've said, however, that Odium is wary of Harmony.
It seems like Odium has been attacking shards that share a world for some reason (dom and dev hon and cult). Maybe his exploit against dual sharded worlds would work less well against a dual-wielding shardholder?
I won't say yes or no to that, but you can imagine that what happened on Scadrial is something he would have preferred never occur.
I'm surprised it didn't occur to anyone to grab two shards to begin with? Pairing Odium with Devotion seems like a good idea.
Did this not occur for a specific reason, or just an oversight on the part of the folks involved?
RAFO
Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*
So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.
Yeah.
Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?
Vin.
Okay, there's your answer.
I assume Sazed does not know the metal used in Lessie's spike because it's off-world, but Odium seems aware of Sazed/Harmony. Why is this?
Odium has a lot more knowledge that Sazed, he has had the power longer, and there are forces purposely trying to limit Harmony's knowledge.
Is Odium planning to move against Harmony?
He is making plans.
Is there one shard besides Harmony that would give Odium a run for his money?
Possibly.
Is Odium aware of Harmony right now?
He definitely is.
Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?
Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.
So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.
So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.
But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, they're still more regular English. Why?
I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.
So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not Hatred [instead of Odium?]
Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."
Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?
He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.
His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?
Yes, it can influence.
So the Shard's Intent can--
Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.
If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?
They were two shards.
Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.
I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.
Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.
That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.
If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?
Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)
So, the end of Bands of Mourning. When Harmony is showing Wax, kind of, what's going on outside the world. Is that Odium?
That's a RAFO. Here's your card.
Were Odium to shatter Harmony, we would NOT get Ruin and Preservation back but instead would get smaller pieces.
In the past, you have said... that we've seen a metal that is from a Shard that we know, on Scadrial. You said Wax has seen the influence of a Shard other than Preservation, Ruin, or Harmony, and that the spike that Bleeder was using was a metal from a Shard we know. It seems like there's another Shard influencing Scadrial. Is Trell an extension of that?
Yes.
And is that Odium?
That's a RAFO.
At the present who is Odium more afraid of? Harmony, Dalinar or Hoid?
Harmony. Odium is extremely confident that he can out-smart Hoid
Are Odium and Harmony aware of each other, and will they ever directly come at each other?
They are aware of each other, and they are both frightened of the other one for different reasons. Or at least “wary of” perhaps is a better term.
That’s interesting. Is that in the narrative perhaps at some point in the future? (another person?) [...] between Harmony and Odium?
[RAFO cards]
Is Harmony more powerful than other Shards?
More powerful or more potent?
Um, powerful.
Harmony is two shards in one.
Could he take Odium?
His two shards are at odds with one another.
(This was interesting to me, from his name being Harmony I had assumed Ruin and Preservation merged seamlessly. Brandon seems to be implying that while Sazed can utilize the power of both shards, he can't simply add them together)
If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal?
If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it?
Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?
The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.
The letters in [Oathbringer]. Are they all three from Shards?
...Yes.
Is the first one, is that one we know? Is that one we've seen yet?
They are all ones you have seen.
They are all ones we have seen.
Yes. Or at least you know.
Have seen or know of.
Yeah.
Has Odium ever been to Threnody?
RAFO
In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?
I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent".
Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?
Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception.
So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?
Yes. Part of him does.
Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?
Yes.
So in the trilogy, we see that when someone has a Hemalurgic spike implanted in them, they can hear Ruin talking to them, both as a vision and in their head. However, we learn in the Hero of Ages that Ruin cannot hear a person's thoughts no matter how much under Ruin's influence they are.
In Alloy of Law, we see that Wax (and other Pathians) uses an earring to "pray" to Harmony, and we see that Harmony can hear his thoughts and respond.
So I guess this leads to three questions: How does Harmony hear the thoughts of Wax, when it's explicitly pointed put that Ruin cannot?
Are the earrings that the Pathians use Hemalurgically charged, as otherwise they would be of no use to Ruin, and therefore Harmony?
Or did Harmony completely change how that aspect of Hemalugy works?
How this all works dates back to the original design of the magic system.
I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complementary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin.
Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes.
Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion.
Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault--if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.)
Harmony is both, the two complementary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen.
Yes, Wax's earring is Invested. (Or, in other terms, it's a Hemalurgic spike.)
Doesn't that imply it was shoved through someone's heart at one point (ala Steel Inquisitor creation process)?
Yes, the metal would have to have been part of a spike that at one point was used to kill someone and rip off a piece of their soul.
Like Adonalsium, could Harmony split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation with the right intent.
You once stated that it is plausible that with a different intent Adonalsium could have shattered into a DIFFERENT 16 shards. You have also said that Harmony is one shard (or could be viewed this way.) My question: Could Harmony split/be split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation (yet still complementing/opposite) with the right intent of the splitter? And if not is this because Harmony is still too invested in Scadrial as Ruin/Preservation?
Almost anything is possible... but it is very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation.
Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?
Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.
Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)
So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.
Has Odium used the weapon created by Adonalsium's opposition?
Has who? Odium?
Has Odium--
Odium, has Odium? That's a RAFO.
Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?
Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.
No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?
Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.
What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible*
There are several that could be considered opposites--
I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to?
Oh, which one would want to join with him?
Or any of them.
I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...]
So we've seen three different cultures of people on Scadrial. Is Harmony involved… well, we can probably assume there's probably more cultures, but there are…
There are more, yes.
Is Harmony involved in all of them, or is he-- Does he pretty much keep his attention on the main one.
Harmony considers himself the god of all of them.
Does Harmony have Straff Venture's hidden atium?
Harmony has everything he needs, but that doesn't answer your question. No, Harmony does not have Straff's atium.
A friend of mine was thinking Harmony's two-power combination 'perk' was the ability to use them together to create instead of just to destroy or preserve.
Was that 'chemical reaction' rule in the plan from the beginning, or was having Harmony more a precedent to develop a rule from it?
It was pretty early. (The idea that the two together can create was mentioned very early in the series, long before Harmony came to be.)
Were the Plains originally shattered by a Dawnsinger? Are Dawnshard magical musical instruments? Are the Parshendi of Odium? Are the gods that the Parshendi abandoned Odium? Are the people above in Sixth of the Dusk Scadrians?
That's a whole pile of RAFOs. But I can answer one; the gods that the Parshendi abandoned are of Odium.
How aware is Odium of the Seventeenth Shard? Hoid mentions that he has to be careful to keep his head down as he doesn't want Odium to catch him. Given the history between the two that makes sense, but would Odium have the same policy for the Sharders, or does he not view them as a threat?
RAFO
Have we ever seen the Physical embodiment of either Odium or Cultivation? Similar to what we saw with Ruin chasing...Vin?
So... Physical embodiment is kind of hard thing to define with Shards because you could argue that everything is a physical embodiment of them, does that make sense?
Yes. I mean more a physical form that the uses share--
Oh okay, okay. So have you ever seen Odium’s? I don’t believe you’ve seen Odium’s.
What about Cultivation’s?
Cultivation is a RAFO.
Chapter Seventeen
The Mists Form
In writing this book, I had to nail down a few worldbuilding issues I'd been contemplating even before the first trilogy ended. What would happen to the mists, for instance, once Sazed took over and became Harmony?
The mists, obviously, are a big part of the series. It didn't make sense—either narratively or worldbuilding-wise—to lose them completely. However, they'd been created as an effect of Preservation trying to use his essence to fight against Ruin's destruction of the world. So . . . wouldn't they go away?
I decided that Sazed would still send them. They're part of the nature of the world now. To acknowledge what had happened, they wouldn't come every night any longer. But they would come. They were changed in that they are no longer simply the raw power of Preservation; they're now a part of Harmony—so they no longer pull away from Hemalurgy in the same way as they used to. They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. (And Feruchemy as well—if one knows how to do it.)
The mists are, in part, the raw power of creation. And when one is favored of Harmony, the mists have a greater effect than they might otherwise have. We'll see more of this later.
Did Harmony give Ironeyes full Mistborn powers, or anything other than what he has with his spikes...
Just what he has with the spikes, I believe. No-- okay let's say this: Harmony did not do anything... That doesn't mean that Marsh hasn't done things himself.
Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial?
*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea.
How does Harmony know about radio?
There are actually two answers to this. First, Harmony was given a grand understanding of the laws of the universe during his Ascension. Second, Preservation had some limited precognitive abilities. Either one of those can lead you to the answer.
How would Harmony theoretically be able to... is Harmony able to fight, considering his dual nature?
He's gonna have a hard time with something like that.
Did Odium intentionally cause direct harm to the inhabitants of Sel or was his sole focus taking down Devotion and Dominion? (Context: I'd like to know if Odium cares/has any interest in mortals or if he only has designs/plans for Shards)
It was all side effect. He is focused on Shards... But he does have secondary interest in mortals.
When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?
Odium never really settled on a planet. He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things. Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process. So yes it is very tough to leave.
Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--
RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.
Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?
Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one
You've said that Splintering a Shard is essentially the same thing as the Shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.
Yeah.
And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.
Yeah.
And Shardholders [Vessels] tend to take the name of the Shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two Shards... or one?
You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both Shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.
If I remember correctly, Allomancy is from Preservation, Hemalurgy is from Ruin and Feruchemy is from both Preservation and Ruin.
This is correct. It isn't caused by a shard, but the interaction of two opposing shards
Would something like that happen between honor and odium?
I just read WoK the other day, I have yet to start in on WoR. That said, my speculation is possibly, but I don't think so. It sounds kind of like Odium isn't from Roshar. Maybe I'm wrong there, but I got that impression. That would mean his form of investiture is somewhere else.
Also, I think that the reason Preservation and Ruin have Feruchemy is also that they worked together to create. There has to be some reason that they interacted while others didn't, and I would guess it is probably their working together
Edit: We could summon [Brandon] but I am almost positive this would get RAFO'd
...RAFO.
He asked for "Something juicy about Odium that no one knows about yet."
Odium and Hoid were once friends.
Is the story of the girl who looked up a story that is only known to Roshar? I know it could have spread out, especially since we see paintings alluding to it in the cosmere seen by a non-Rosharan but could it be a story they talked about on... say... Yolen?
Also, was the "god" from "God's love" mentioned by Hoid a piece that either should have or did belong to/with Passion/Odium? Cause that would make all the sense in the world to me that somehow Odium was Passion but because Odium once he lost love from his being... I know it doesn't make a lot sense in the timeline. I just can't get the thought out of my head.
Thank you for the time you spend answering my inanity or was it insanity. Either/or.
These are actually both RAFOs, I'm afraid. I do appreciate you asking, but I'm going to remain silent for now.
When Wax is talking to Harmony he mentions 'the radio' and other things. Are there already societies that have things like that and how is he getting that information. Is it like a Spiritual Realm..
He knows things from his Ascension. He gain an innate knowledge of the universe in interesting ways. In addition, Preservation had some minor innate progno... he could see the future a little bit, and so could Ruin in a little different way. Let's just say that there are a bunch of things mixing together that give Harmony some knowledge that most people wouldn't have.
But will we see some of societies soon or is that further in the future?
*RAFOes* You'll find out.
Has Hoid been in contact with Harmony in the timeline so far? Like, physically.
Physically in contact with Harmony in the timeline so far? "Physically" as it relates to a Shard is a difficult thing to say, but I would say that yes, they have interacted.
RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomicaly quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understod, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?
Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. :) (Not quite a RAFO.)
I'm supposed to ask how Odium and Honor's Investiture could be so similar.
Odium and Honor, like a lot of the Shards, can be considered to have a similar theme. But that is very common among the Shards, in my opinion.
