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Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?
Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...
Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?
Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.
Was Honor just talking about the people on Roshar when he told Dalinar to "Unite them?"
RAFO. *taunting hum* Read and find out.
Continuity question:
Just prior to meeting with the Nightwatcher 5.5 years ago, Dalinar wakes up at the end of a highstorm and seems to have experienced a vision from Stormfather. But in The Way of Kings, Dalinar says that the visions only began "a few months ago." He also seems to have specific memory of the "first" even if he can't recall all of the details, and it seems unlikely he would have visions for several years without anyone having noticed.
So, should we assume that (1) this strange "dream" in Oathbringer was not actually a one of Honor's visions? Is that just a weird dream, or perhaps some OTHER vision from Stormfather?
Or, (2) this is one of Honor's visions and any contradictory details from The Way of Kings are superseded by Oathbringer?
Or, (3) this is one of Honor's visions, and Dalinar just doesn't remember his history of the visions very well.
So, I did this quite intentionally, it's not number two. But I expected these questions to be asked, and it's a RAFO, but it's one of these RAFOs where I wrote it very deliberately the way I did on purpose, and I'm going to leave it to your speculation as to what it means.
I noticed some interesting things during my re read of Oathbringer after Rhythm of War and I am not sure if they are mistakes or not.
First thing is voices in Dalinar's head. In previous books he could hear Honor's voice (assuming this is indeed Honor) only in visions.
Because obviously Honor is dead and cannot talk to Dalinar for real. In Oathbringer Dalinar suddenly starts to hear this voice even outside of the visions and it's not the Stormfather.
Second thing is warm light that comes from a place beyond. Dalinar always says this light comes from a distant place, but in the final scene of Oathbringer (Dalinar rejects Odium) he can feel this light inside of himself.
So the question is: is this a mistake or was it done intentionally?
And the last thing I notice - Dalinar exhibits aspects of all three shards and he's been literally touched by all of them. Is it important?
The first one is intentional. Read into that what you will. Though I don't know if you're completely interpreting it right.
This second one is also intentional, and you are reading it correctly.
And yes, Dalinar exhibiting aspects of all three aspects of all three shards is important.
Yeah a shared vision with Navani would be pretty helpful. I assume the mechanism messing with the Radiants in the Tower would also mess with bringing someone into the vision. But then again, the pure Honor Surge Adhesion still works for Kaladin and aren't the vision tied directly with Honor?
It would have messed with such a vision, yes.
When Dalinar and Honor are having a "chat" at the end, Honor says "I don't know who you are, or how you found your way here." Does Dalinar visit the Spiritual Realm in his dreams then?
RAFO. (Sorry.)
Is the reason Dalinar rejects the Thrill because he has a connection to Honor through his visions from the Stormfather?
…Is the reason that Dalinar rejects the Thrill because he has a connection to the Stormfather through his visions?
Yes.
The answer is yes, this is parti-- this is in play. Though you could say the two of them have a si-- The reason he has a connection to the Stormfather also influences the reason that he rejects the Thrill, so it may be more correlation than causation, but there's at least a little causation as well.
Would humanity be better or worse off by the end of Oathbringer if Honor ended his visions with:
"This has been a pre-recorded message from Honor. If you have any inquiries, please direct them to the Stormfather or to a local spren representative."
Dial 9 to refill with Stormlight.
Had the Stormfather sent visions to Jasnah instead of Dalinar, how would that have changed her?
That's an excellent question. I think that Jasnah and the Stormfather would not be a terribly great match. But I think her coming to understand a very powerful spren like the Stormfather and seeing all of this, I think it would have really helped Jasnah build her philosophy of life. Because, what's going on in the cosmere, is that the gods are lowercase-g gods, right? And this is a really fascinating thing that I like when fantasy deals with. I'm certainly not the only one. But at what point do you worship a being who is pretty flawed, but super powerful and able to help you in your life? And what kind of worship is that, right?
There's a level between atheism and theism in fantasy works, where it's like, "We can see that someone legitimately has supernatural powers, and following that person makes some logical sense. But does that make them God?" Certainly not as the church teaches, where there is a perfect being who is concerned with the lives of people and doesn't make mistakes.
So I think Jasnah would have arrived at some of the conclusions that she made, probably, faster if she had had these visions to see the past. She would have known some things that she was suspicious of and hoped would be the case. She probably could have gotten to Urithiru much faster. It would have made a big difference in a lot of different ways. But it was not a good match, let's say. She was not the person the Stormfather was looking for for these sorts of things, to continue the legacy of Honor and things like this.
Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?
RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)
So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from Beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.
The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)
What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.
Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."
The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.
You've previously mentioned that someone bonded to a Seon would get some benefits if they went to Roshar , basically that it would be treated sort of like a Nahel bond. This implies to me that something about Roshar likes to give powers from bonds. (Hi there, Honor...)
Should this be taken to mean that spren-bond based Surgebinding won't work off-world, as it's a benefit Roshar gives from having a bond? Or would it be more specific, and mean that some of the passive benefits Radiants get (visions, Windrunner squire strengths) would be lost, but Surgebinding retained?
Mainly I'm interested in whether or not we can reach maximum Jasnah levels and have the possibility of her appearing in non-SA books. I don't think she'd be much into worldhopping if she couldn't get back with the Travel Surge...
Surgebinding will work off-world.
[questions being asked on behalf of Alyx, a.k.a. FeatherWriter] About Renarin's Surgebinding. Are [his visions] influenced by Voidbinding instead of Surgebinding?
That's a RAFO.
And then if they are influenced by Odium the way that Dalinar's are influenced by Honor.
That's a RAFO. I'm not going to talk about stuff like that! I have dropped some very blatant hints, and that is enough for me right now.
I asked pretty much the same thing last time, and you pointed me to a certain page. Can I tell her what the page was?
Yes. There are certain things going on with him that I feel are very blatant. I think he [Argent] is going to point them out to you.
Who's telling "Unite Them" to Dalinar because it's obviously not Stormfather nor Honor because he's hearing it even outside of the visions, right?
He is hearing that, that is a RAFO. You can have a RAFO card.
The visions that have Dalinar and Renarin are very different. This is related to the type of their spren ? One related to Cultivation who allows to see the future and other related to Honor who allows to see the past ?
Afraid this is a RAFO.
Lightsong Meets Allmother
This was a tough scene to get right. The trick is, I knew by this point that I wanted Allmother to be one of those who disliked Lightsong. She thinks that he's a useless god, and she isn't one of those who saw hidden depth in him.
I also knew that I wanted to give a twist here by having Lightsong offer up his Commands and give himself a way out, so to speak. What he does here is rather honorable. He knows that Allmother is a clever woman and perhaps one of the only gods capable of going toe-to-toe with Blushweaver. By giving her his Commands, he does a good job of countering Blushweaver without having to resist her.
But he couldn't get away with it. He had to stay in the middle of it all, for the good of the story and for the good of him as a character. So the question became, "Why in the world would Allmother give him her Commands?"
The prophetic dreams came to my rescue a couple of times in this book. I know that they're cheating slightly, but since I've built them into the story, I might as well use them. Having her having dreamed of his arrival gives me the out for why she'd do something as crazy as give up her Commands. I think her visions, mixed with the knowledge that Calmseer trusted Lightsong, would be enough to push her over the edge.
Hoid says [in Warbreaker] that he learned stories from a place where gods have died. Is that Roshar?
RAFO. I will say this. A god has died on Roshar. Only one, that we know. So, "gods" would not be plural.
In Chapter 19 of The Way of Kings, when Dalinar has a vision of fighting Voidbringers (maybe something else?) as a farmer, he says that he felt the Thrill in the vision. Does this mean that Nergaoul was active there, at the time that vision was "recorded" or was it Dalinar's viewing of the vision that was affected by the Thrill? Would the actual person whose perspective he was seeing have felt the Thrill if he had fought?
This is a great question, and one I've never been asked before. The answer is going to be a little vague.
First, Dalinar could have felt the Thrill from Nergaoul, and imported it into the vision.
Second, Nergaoul could have been active then, and the farmer could have felt it when he fought.
So both theories are valid. Which is it? I am going to hang back from answering this for now, as I am digging more into the Unmade in a future book.
Seons are Splinters?
Yes. Splinters of Devotion.
Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall...
The Stormfather?
The Stormfather.
The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.
Does he have another Splinter?
So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally.
Back in ['14] you referred to Honor's Purposes to me at one point. Is that still a thing in the cosmere?
Honor's purpose?
Honor's purposes. You referred to ten of them. Using the concept of Shardic numbers. But I don't have that on record, I don't know anything about it, it's been a confusing topic ever since.
So that's still a deal. It just plays into the ten names of the Almighty and the ten attributes of the Fools and the ten attributes of the Almighty.
Are Purposes something every shard has?
I wouldn't say-- No. It's playing more into the nature of Honor itself.
How do visions in the cosmere work? And I'm thinking Realmatically.
So almost always [it's] glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm. But you are often seeing it through the Cognitive, and so like a vision that...
So like the vision that Dalinar sees. What's going on is-- being pulled, and kind of stretched a little bit through the Realms, into the Spiritual Realm. Where a Cognitive construct is adding a framework to seeds that are set in place.
So that you can kind of comprehend the Spiritual?
You can comprehend-- and also there's a little bit of a life to it. Meaning it can respond to you and things like this, to an extent. So imagine, it kind of works like an AI. Imagine there's some-- You've got that power in the Spiritual Realm and you're adding a framework to it, that it is shining through, and that is giving you the vision. Complicated, I know. Spiritual Realm is supposed to be weird, and we aren't supposed to quite comprehend it, but that's why we've got the Cognitive framework there.
Is it possible that Honor's Shard is named Honor, because this is how the man who hold The Shard inerpreted it but not it's real name? In that case could The Shard change the name to something else that would better fit with personality of the new holder? As an example, could Honor become Unity if Dalinar were the holder?
The name Honor is bigger than Tanavast, though it's not impossible for shards to be interpreted differently by those who hold them, and perhaps other names be applied.
I want to know if Taravangian, the Ghostbloods, Amaram, is there any kind of like connecting... are they working together or anything like that?
Taravangian, so the Diagram, the Ghostbloods, is that the two you mentioned? Amaram is Sons of Honor; Amaram and Gavilar are Sons of Honor. These are three different groups who are aware of what is happening and have different philosophies on how to deal with what is coming. They have opposed views, for example, the Sons of Honor are trying to bring back Voidbringers because they believe it will return the heralds as well. Where as the diagram has his plan... y'know, I wont give them away. Some of the are hinted at, you can read. He talks about it, but you can see what he's doing. The Ghostbloods, they have not talked about their motives very much. They have different motives. The Sons of Honor are the easiest to figure out and they are also the most wrong, right. If you read what Taravangian says you can probably see what the Diagram is trying to do.
Is Honor still alive?
Honor? Honor's dead.
What about Tanavast?
So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.
My thought is, you know how the Stormfather in Oathbringer says he's not able, or he's never seen Dalinar be able to create the bridge. Does that mean Honor could be reborn?
So, there are things standing in the way, but cosmereologically, it is fully possible that another person could become Honor. The Vessel that was holding Honor before is gone. Though the Stormfather is kind of his Cognitive Shadow at this point, in a way. But the power, something else could be done with it. Or it could remain in the state it is now. Your answer is yes, but there are some hindrances along the way.
When it is said that Honor started to go crazy towards the end of the Knights Radiant, were those Knights seeing Honor as he was slowly dying, or were they interacting with a Cognitive Shadow of Honor, like how Preservation left Fuzz behind?
RAFO
The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?
He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.
Did the Sunmaker see visions of the Stormfather, too?
He did not. The Sunmaker was basically my version of an Alexander the Great, or maybe a better example would be Genghis Khan or somebody like that. One of the great warlords in the past. He did not see the visions of the Stormfather.
Can Dalinar hypothetically repair Honor's Shard or this is beyond his powers?
This would not be within the scope of his powers, traditionally. (Though I should note that what it even means to 'repair Honor's Shard' is subject to debate.)
Is Dalanar just Seeing visions or is he visiting/interacting in the past a-la Quantum Leap?
They are essentially visions. They don't change the past or create alternate timelines or anything like that.
Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?
No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.
Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.
Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.
As Lift's spren refers to the Nightwatcher as Mother, right...
He definitely calls somebody a mother. The implication in the text is that it's the Nightwatcher.
Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation?
It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean?
Yes.
There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.
What Shard are Cryptics associated with?
RAFO.
I'm supposed to ask how Odium and Honor's Investiture could be so similar.
Odium and Honor, like a lot of the Shards, can be considered to have a similar theme. But that is very common among the Shards, in my opinion.
So far all the spren that have bonded to humans appear to be emotion-based as opposed to nature-based. Is that true for all the Knights Radiant?
Well it depends. For instance: how would you define Wyndle?
I struggled with that one.
Uh hm. So I would say that you are on the right track, that there is a definite inclination that direction.
Towards Honor?
Yes. There is.
Is there other surges then, that are more Cultivation-exclusive or other Knights Radiant that are...?
We'll RAFO that, but the original Knights Radiant are more focused on Honor and his spren.
Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others?
This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do.
Back in, I think, Words of Radiance I asked you-- Somebody asked the question that had to do with the number 10 on Roshar and I didn't get the question on the recording--which was horrible--but your answer talked about Honor's purposes. Is what you said, and you mentioned 10 of them and that is why the number 10 is so sacred. Could you say something so I have something on the record? So we know what you said about that?
Honor's purposes...
Or Shard's purposes... Like what is that all about?
That will become-- I said it vaguely on purpose.
Did Honor and Cultivation binding Odium to the Roshar system directly cause the death stroke to Honor?
*sighs indecisively for a good ten seconds* RAFO. It's fiddly.
What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did humans come with Odium?
So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.
Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?
Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.
Could Honor and Autonomy be considered opposites, like, Autonomy freeing from Honor's oaths?
Yes, you could definitely think of it that way. Those two are more likely to be opposed than some others.
If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?
She did.
Are the people from Dalinar's visions, the ones he has the vision through, related to one another?
No. It's not a Wheel of Time thing where you are going through generations. Good question.
The Almighty’s original name was Tanavast, yes/no?
Yes and no. The concept of the “Almighty” in Roshar has a lot of meanings, many of them wrong.
But the person who held the Shard Honor was originally named Tanavast?
Yes. You wiggled it out of me. That was the name of the original holder of the Shard Honor.
Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather?
Why was Dalinar able to feel the Thrill during his visions from the Stormfather. Well that would indicate that the same reason he feels the Thrill now still was in existence. Well not-- I mean was still affecting him. Does that make sense? He was in the real world, his body was in the real world. Whatever makes him feel the Thrill was still affecting him. Does that make any sense?
Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?
Good question. They came together.
Dalinar's visions: at the end they are revealed to be a "journal", where his interactions are superfluous. How does this explain the vision where he fought the smoke creatures with a fire poker? There his actions were having an impact.
We get into this in the next book with some vivid examples. So it's a RAFO--but with a promise that an explanation is coming.
With all the new avatar lore from The Lost Metal, can and should the Stormfather be considered to be an avatar of Honor?
Ooooh, RAFO! What a wonderful question. There's some fertile ground for theorizing, there. I gave you the prologue of that so you could spend a few years theorizing, guys, so go ahead and go forth.
Stormfather once said that "Three of sixteen ruled but now the Broken One reigns" and that "Odium reigns", is not crazy to think that Odium is the Broken One. My question is, could be possible to fuse Odium's shard (without Rayse) with the remanents of Honor (his Cognitive Shadow) in order to create a new whole Shard? Could Dalinar do something like that? He would be uniting them (two Shards, one of them supposed to be the Broken One and the other that we actually now is a bit broken).
[That] is possible
Did Cultivation foresee Honor’s Shattering?
That’s a RAFO.
The really question is, given the death of Rayse, is Honor really dead? Or is his essence out there, still available to be claimed?
I will answer this for certain by the end of Book Five. For now, RAFO.
If given the opportunity, which Shard would Kelsier want to punch next?
He would find it really fun to punch Honor. Really fun.
Do the Shards know each others' weaknesses? Like the metal blindness or anything?
They are not aware of every specific, but they know generalities.
So they know that they do have weaknesses.
Yeah.
So would Odium have taken advantage of Honor's weakness to Splinter him?
You could say that, yeah.
