RayW2
Does the Shard of Autonomy have a paired Shard (like Ruin/Preservation or…Cultivation/Preservation)? I was thinking that Unity would work as the opposition of Autonomy, though we don’t even know what Unity is.
Brandon Sanderson
RAFO.
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Does the Shard of Autonomy have a paired Shard (like Ruin/Preservation or…Cultivation/Preservation)? I was thinking that Unity would work as the opposition of Autonomy, though we don’t even know what Unity is.
RAFO.
Sazed's two Shards do not "cancel out", as Brandon said that it would like being pulled by two huge gravitational tides. You can get to a way that you aren't instantly ripped apart, but that doesn't mean you don't feel it. (When asked what effect the Shards would have on Sazed, Brandon said, "Read Alloy of Law to find out".)
In reading about Adonalsium and Odium, I get the sense that it's more related to lerasium and atium than it is to, like, Preservation or Ruin. Because, sometimes it seems like we're identifying... Odium and Adonalsium as beings instead of, like, the body of--
Yeah, it is a little confusing by design. The question is, like, telling the difference between the Vessel who is holding the power, the intent of that power, and the physical manifestations of that power as Investiture or as whatever, these things are confusing. And I did this on purpose. I like that blurring between them. One of the things I did when I was designing the magic for the cosmere, was-- you guys know this very easily from looking at the books, I love the ideas of quantum theory, string theory, all this stuff. And even, just looking at quantum mechanics as we understand them right now. And the further you get into the details, the more the rules that you built, everything you understand upon, become blurry. And we live in this world where certain scientific principles, like-- I was sitting at a writing group, talking to my friend who's a mathematician, and I'm like, "I really like math 'cause it is objective. One plus one equals two." And he's like, "Well, the further you get in math, the less that actually is true, and the more 'One plus one equals two' is a philosophical statement, not an actual objective truth." And we talked about the nature of, the further you dig into things--
So, I tried to build the cosmere magic-- For instance, how the Bands of Mourning work. We are getting away from Step 1, which is, "Metals push or pull." We can get that. Into Step 2, where we are building complex machines out of the interactions between the magic. And we will then get to Step 3, where it's like, we can explain the principles, but you need to be a computer engineer to understand exactly how the computer is working. And I wanted to be able to build to get to that point. With the philosophy of, "What is the power, what is the individual, what is the intent," and things like that, we're kind of going that direction, in a philosophical direction. What does it mean? What are the answers?
Humans like things to be divided and put in boxes, but in nature, these boxes are usually arbitrary, of our distinction. So, I like that aspect of our interaction with the real world. So, the answer to your question is, this is not a question for me, this is a question for philosophers. Where does the intent stop, and the being begin? And what does it mean to have a body? Is the body of the original person that has taken up the Shard, the Vessel, when that drops out when they die, is that their real body? Or is that just the power pushing out something that it absorbed and recreating it, and dropping a copy of it? What is that? What's going on there? What's it mean? How much can a Vessel influence their intent? This is all a question for philosophers, that I'm going to explore in the books, but it's not the sort of thing that you're like--
Does one plus one equal two? The answer is, one plus one equals two according to this proof that we believe explains the universe, but is a little fuzzier than you think it is.
Wit's dated a dragon; has Wit also dated a Shard?
Wit has dated someone who wasn't a Shard at the point, but at some point in the future became a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium.
How does Connection to a Shard actually work? 16 random people took 16 Shards in the past, I don't think all of them had special Connection to a certain Shard each of them picked. We even know that Ati, Ruin's Vessel, was a kind, generous man, direct opposition to Ruin's Intent.
However, in Mistborn we find out that you must gain certain amount of Connection to become a Shard Vessel. Kelsier wasn't Connected to Preservation well enough (he's more of Ruin), Sazed was somehow Connected to both Preservation and Ruin? So, should you be Connected to a Shard to Ascend? Why was it different in the past?
Also, what would happen if, theoretically Dalinar, a good, honorable man, kill Odium's Vessel and take a Shard for himself? Will he change Shard's Intent to something...let's say less destructive or Odium's intent will just devour his personality and he'll act just like Odium's current Vessel?
That's pretty big RAFO territory, I'm afraid. I'll just say that this is something I do intend to delve into in the books.
How does Harmony know about radio?
There are actually two answers to this. First, Harmony was given a grand understanding of the laws of the universe during his Ascension. Second, Preservation had some limited precognitive abilities. Either one of those can lead you to the answer.
Have any other Shards--if the Shards were split, for some reason, to I guess protect, why is it that some of them clumped together, like Ruin and Preservation, and Honor and Cultivation?
Some are more naturally like that, but at the same time they also had personalities driving them, and it’s mostly the personalities.
Friends would have gotten together in the same place kinda sorta?
Yeah, or business associates how are “We can do something cool together”. Before Odium just hunted them done and y’know… But the personalities are driving most of that.
The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?
What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.
With bits and pieces of the respective pieces of Harmony still laying about, is Harmony actually skewed in one way or another if slightly and does Sazed's personality circumvent this in any way ?
Personality can always circumvent the powers--it just gets harder and harder to hold out as centuries pass.
You said that Preservation created the Terris Prophecies. Why couldn't Ruin see into the future and counter Preservation's plan? Is it because Ruin's intent has him focusing more on the present than the future, while Preservation (wanting to preserve forever) looks more into the future for that goal.
Looking into the future was not something Ruin was good at doing. That ability is confined to certain shards, and not others.
I had a question regarding the sixteen Shards... If they are, or when they are reformed to Adonalsium, will it have to be one person holding all sixteen Shards?
That's a RAFO. I'm gonna RAFO that partially because there's not even-- who knows if it can all be recombined.
Double Eye of the Almighty, is that just symbolism or does Tanavast have weird pupils?
That is symbolism. But if you were to see Tanavast and you were on Roshar, he would manifest with weird pupils at that point.
Reflection of how people believe?
Yeah. But the actual Tanavast before, he did not have weird pupils.
What's the most RAFOd question that you're asked?
These days, it's about probably the sphere that Gavilar gave Szeth. That's probably the most commonly RAFOd one. But I'm not 100% sure. No, no, it's names of Shards that I haven't named yet. That's gotta be it.
Why does Preservation fueling Allomancy not weaken Preservation compared to Ruin?
Because the power, once used, returns to him--much as water, after passing over a turbine, continues on in its system.
So I'm wondering, how omniscient are the Vessels?
This is a difficult question to answer because they don't know everything, but they could theoretically. And so, the actual Vessel needs to apply the power and learn things. And they don't know the future exactly. Particularly, you'll notice some hints of this in Oathbringer. There are certain things that really foul with their ability to see the future. It's whenever we kind of get the equivalence of an atium shadow right? Reflection that reflects that someone sees the future, and then suddenly you end up with this kind of difficult chain to follow.
Can you tell me who might be the most all-knowing out of all of them?
I will say the older they are the more they generally know.
So probably not Harmony then?
Probably not Harmony.
Is Adonalsium going to be mentioned by name in Warbreaker and The Way of Kings or is he going to be an underlining "God"(I don't know what to call him yet) idea? I am curious now, so I will have to keep my eyes open for him.
Adonalsium (Ahy-doe-Nahl-see-um) will be mentioned by name again. Ruin and Preservation were what have been called Shards of Adonalsium. (The Voice from Warbreaker is another Shard.)
Is this "character" a common link between your books for religion or magical or maybe even both?
Adonalsium has to do with the Cosmere, which is the word Realmatic philosophers use to refer to the greater universe of the Shardworlds. It's hard to separate religion, magic, science, and society in most of these worlds. So "both" is a good guess.
I was curious because he just seemed to appear and nothing further on him/it. Thank you for mentioning that he is in these two other books, I will have to look for hints of him.
The word Adonalsium (or, well, the miss-spelling of it) appears in only one of the books. Other clues and links between the books can be found as well. (Some people on my forums have spotted some of them. Others have gone unspotted so far.)
Can all the Shards manifest the same powers, for example could Honor create an Allomancer?
Yes, but there would be more natural ways for Honor to achieve this.
As a follow-up, do you understand what polymorphism is? If so, could all the Shards meet the same contract?
Yes, I do, yes they can. I understand what you are asking and it is a soft yes.
We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?
Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.
*Thinks for a while*
Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.
It seems to me like the Shards each have a color associated with them. Honor I think is blue, Odium is gold... My first question would be, what colors would be associated with Preservation and Ruin?
So, I have always associated white and black with Preservation and Ruin.
Would that have changed for Harmony?
It will have changed for Harmony. But I won't say what it is.
So, in Warbreaker, Awakened items have to emulate humans. Why is that?
It's a matter of perception on the people using the magic. And there are ramifications on the fact that the Shards themselves were all once humanoid.
Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?
Yes.
In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?
I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.
But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.
The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)
Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.
That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.
I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.
But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)
Wait.
I'm confused.
So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?
Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.
And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.
But now you're saying it didn't?
If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?
Could you please clarify all that?
So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"
The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.
When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.
I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.
We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.
Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.
You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.
Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.
And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.
I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...
You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).
Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?
Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.
I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.
Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.
Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.
I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.
Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?
When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.
Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.
Does the Spiritual power used in any given magic system come from the supporting Shard itself, or through it from the remains of Adonalsium and the Power of Creation?
From the Shard in most cases. But it's also often built into the world innately, and so the Shard (if someone is holding it) doesn't always have control over who can or cannot use the magic.
Why are specific focuses chosen for specific Shards? Why metals for Ruin and Preservation and not Commands like Endowment?
RAFO.
If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a metal like atium, or...?
If another Shard just came to visit, probably not.
If they brought a spren or--
If they came and completely Invested the world, then things might start happening. But there's some special circumstances, remember. Ruin and Preservation created that planet. Specifically. And so there's some goofy things that happened because of that. For instance Roshar was not made by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. That's one of the big differences about what's going on there.
Now this one will probably be RAFO'd: I know you already said that there are four Shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?
Some worlds have more than others. You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards. One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there.
I know that we've "interacted with two directly" (the pool in Elantris, and The Voice that called Lightsong back to life) that we've "seen it's power" (Dahkhor??) and another that we've seen their infulence (I have no idea on this one, though I think it might be whatever pointed out Aon Rao in Elantris to Raoden)
Nice guesses on most of those. You've got some things right. You've got some things wrong. The only thing I'll confirm (and I don't think I've said this before) is that The Voice is, indeed, one of the Shards of Adonalsium. (Endowment is that Shard's true name, by the way.)
I was reading the first book-- The Way of Kings, there is a scene-- no a Letter. Is that scene-- the person who is sending the Letter says that the Shards in Elantris are broken-- sorry they're, like, [Splintered], and they can’t be used again. How is that so, because if there was Adonalsium which Shattered and people took the Shards.
There are those who believe you could put the pieces back together and their are those who believe you can't, and shouldn't.
You shouldn't put them back--
There are some who believe that.
So will they be able to put it back together?
Well there are some who believe it is possible. *laughter*
Congratulations, you win a RAFO card! RAFO is something Robert Jordan would say, that means Read And Find Out and I print out little cards so at least you get something. That means "I'm sorry I can't answer your question but I'm really not that sorry otherwise I would answer it"
All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.
So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.
And so are there any Shards that we don't know of that are Shattered?
Yes.
Four, right? Ish?
Eh... eh... Honor is gone.
And Devotion and Dominion.
Devotion and Dominion are gone. There are others. The question is, [is] Cultivation gone or not? I'm not-- I haven't answered that for you. There are others. So this is what I can't-- I'm not gonna <just> share the answer. This is why I'm not gonna give you answers on these things.
Is the ability to foretell the future, we know that some Shardholders are better at that than others, is that dependent on the Shard or the holders.
On the Shards. No, let me say both.
Both?
Yeah. Because your own-- yeah.
With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?
It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.
Is there anything universal about all of them?
They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.
Speaking of intents, Investiture, and what Shards can see, hypothetically if Odium were to go to Scadrial would some things not be visible to him, like, say, metal?
Metal would be hard for him to see, yes.
On Roshar, do the humans predate the two Shards coming there, or did they come with the Shards?
The humans were...not created by Honor, Cultivation or Odium.
If Earth had two or three Shards, what would they be?
That is not something that I feel confident answering right now. So let's RAFO that one. Maybe I'll think about it, but I honestly don't know.
Would it be possible to create a potential Vessel that has a Connection to all 16 Shards? Through a combination of birth planet, genetics, Hemalurgy--
You-- So, terminology. The Vessel holds a Shard. Lots of people have Connections to the Shards without holding them. So, I'm just gonna RAFO that. You guys got years and years left, before we're even gonna discuss things about-- But if I tell you now, like, what are you gonna ask?
I asked if Sazed is the only one to hold more than one Shard.
"Sazed is the only one to currently hold two Shards." After a few seconds, he added, "I'm not going to say he is the only one to ever hold two."
You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?
It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering
I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?
Yes.
So what happens when Shards die?
Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After it dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive Shadow" of sorts. For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and Snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive Shadow, and he's semi-sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody.
Is Harmony stronger than Odium?
Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.
I heard a quote that talked about a Shard we haven’t seen yet that only wants to be left alone.
Yes.
I have a guess but you’ll probably give me a read and find out.
I probably will but you can go on record.
Isolation, I guess.
You are officially on record. I will give you your RAFO card.
*Laughing* Thank you, very much.
Do all Shards have some sort of Shard-induced weakness, like how Ruin and Preservation can't see metal?
Yes.
Was the other god in Scadrial, Trell or whatnot, they're kind of mentioning him, does that imply there other really powerful beings out there outside of the Shards?
There are possibly really powerful beings, but… how should we say… *long pause* I mean, there are those who would call Hoid a very powerful being, who exist outside Shards, but if you're talking deific level things in the cosmere, they're all related to the Shards… Or demigod level.
Can Odium or any other [Shards] edit text like Ruin could? ...Or is that a special Ruin thing.
This is possible for others as well. The trick about it is, [Ruin] saturated everything on Scadrial in a way that not all Shards saturate their planets.
Okay, what do you mean "saturate"?
Creating it, does that make sense? And so this was partially an aspect of the fact that everything on that planet, every atom was, y'know, had him in it... I mean he didn't create the atoms, let's say that, but yeah... The whole planet's existence and particularly the people on it are [Ruin], attuned to [Ruin].
Is there a Shard named Survival?
RAFO.
I'm supposed to ask how Odium and Honor's Investiture could be so similar.
Odium and Honor, like a lot of the Shards, can be considered to have a similar theme. But that is very common among the Shards, in my opinion.
Could someone who is spiked, not on Scadrial, still talk to the Shards?
Yes. Little asterisk, but yes.
Could a hypothetical shard of double power split itself into two different single power shards at will?
RAFO I'm afraid.
What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible*
There are several that could be considered opposites--
I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to?
Oh, which one would want to join with him?
Or any of them.
I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...]
Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?
I will RAFO that one.
Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?
That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.